Tuesday, December 9, 2008

A Polite Request for Discussion

Wow -- I've actually got some people reading my little blog. That's really nice (although not all the comments have been).

It's been mentioned several times, both here, on Bill Tammeus' blog and in the KC Star's Faithwalk section, that some of the more vocal theist defenders have "listened in on" the atheist meetups around town. I have a polite request for those who do -- why don't you gather up your courage, gird your loins, and join in the conversations face-to-face? Why "spy" on others, when you could join in the conversation and perhaps actually provide something other than sniping, anonymous comments on blogs?

Here's a idea (and a challenge) -- I'll meet anyone, face-to-face/one-on-one to discuss religion, belief, faith, politics, etc. All you have to do is show up. I don't record, video, or take pictures -- just talk and maybe have some coffee. This Thursday from noon to 1:00, I'll be at the Border's bookstore (119th and Strang Line Rd) in Olathe. I'll be sitting quietly at one of the coffeeshop booths reading a book on my Sony digital reader. If any of the theists is brave enough to have their worldview challenged and questioned, please stop by and chat.

If you can't make it at that time, feel free to email me (or leave a comment here) to arrange a different time/location. I'm generally fairly flexible on scheduling if I have enough notice.

I'm looking forward to meeting you (maybe).

14 comments:

AdamH said...

Courage? I admit I am somewhat afraid, because Iggy said he tracks people. I don't want to be tracked. He also threatens people. Jokingly? Who know? I AM NOT OBLIGATED TO TAKE THE CHANCE.

Futher, he is known to film and record people and put parts of them on You Tube. He did it to Bill Tammeus, as you well know.

And now, because of your joining in with Iggy on the Bill Tammeus blog you are suspect as well. Why would you want to meet personally?

Don't tell me it is to "understand"...your "understanding" is just a techique of deconversion in your view, as you foolishly admitted in one of your posts.

A tactic. Nothing more or less.

And what can you argue in person that you can't argue on a blog?

I would need to know more. Given your association with Iggy, your motives are suspect.

Chuck Lunney said...

If you are too afraid or don't have confidence in your beliefs, I can understand your reluctance to meet.

I'm my own person -- as I said, I don't photograph, film, record or take notes. I am interested in finding out how and why people think the way they do, and I like to try and push people into reason and critical thinking of their views and positions, because I think it's the best way to strengthen and test one's beliefs.

You can consider it a "tactic" -- but it's not a deception (gee, I even BLOGGED about it the other day). And it's no more suspect than the recruitment and tactics of religious groups that try to sway people to their view.

Are you that weak in your faith that simply meeting and talking to an atheist is a threat to your beliefs? Are you that insecure and uncertain that you can't risk even the possibility of having your views questioned in a rational, skeptical manner? If so, don't bother showing up -- you aren't worth talking to.

I like meeting people in person and talking to them. It eliminates the anonymity of digital communication, which can foster aggressive and insulting behaviors (yes, I include myself in that). A face to face talk tends to be more civil, more personal and more interesting.

As I said, I will be at the Border's on Thursday at noon. Show up or not, I don't really care. If no one does, I'll simply read for an hour.

AdamH said...

You have to quit misrepresenting; I no where said I don't have confidence in my beliefs. I no where suggested that you have anything to threaten my beliefs.

But I did say I am somewhat afraid.

You seem to ignore that "KCF" threatens people, then saying it is a joke. Maybe so, but as I said, IT IS NOT MY OBLGICATION TO FIND OUT.

If he hadn't started that crap a year ago on the Tammeus blog and kept it up routinely, the whole local climate might be different.

You say you don't photograph or record, but you do talk to Iggy. He wants to know for sure who I am because he says he has "big plans" for me. Whatever that means. I know he has threatened legal actions more than once. He has no grounds, but he has made things up about me on the net; he has sources of income, I can't afford to defend at this stage of my life.

(IN fact, I am certain you have already talked to him about these posts and tried to compare IP numbers. Go ahead, I have never used my own system for these discussion.)

And I have not found face to face meetings to be more civil; you have suggested that I am afraid of being made fun of but I have been to many atheist meetings where I was ridiculed and laughed at by the WHOLE GROUP. Something about a mob in action...

And since you say I don't know anything about you, I am under no obligation to take your word for anything; in fact, you have already insinuated that I am afraid of your arguments.

AdamH said...

Just as I thought, IGGY is here now, and posted a few minutes ago.

GOTHCHA, boy.

You really thought I would buy your line of bull, didn't you?

LOL!

Chuck Lunney said...

You have to quit misrepresenting; I no where said I don't have confidence in my beliefs. I no where suggested that you have anything to threaten my beliefs.

If you are so confident of your beliefs and don't think I have anything to threaten them, why are you so afraid to meet face to face, rather than anonymously on the internet?

But I did say I am somewhat afraid.

You seem to ignore that "KCF" threatens people, then saying it is a joke. Maybe so, but as I said, IT IS NOT MY OBLGICATION TO FIND OUT.


Are you really that paranoid? Are you honestly saying that you think ANYONE would follow through on absurd threats in a public place like Border's?

Or are you just making excuses?

If he hadn't started that crap a year ago on the Tammeus blog and kept it up routinely, the whole local climate might be different.

Fine, Iggy's can be obnoxious, offensive and issues baseless, absurd threats on another blog.

SO WHAT?

You say you don't photograph or record, but you do talk to Iggy.

So do you. So what?

He wants to know for sure who I am because he says he has "big plans" for me. Whatever that means. I know he has threatened legal actions more than once. He has no grounds, but he has made things up about me on the net; he has sources of income, I can't afford to defend at this stage of my life.

So, if he has no grounds, has no evidence, and it is he who has made the threats -- why are you worried? What is so frighteningly scary about meeting for a cup of coffee to talk about your views?

(IN fact, I am certain you have already talked to him about these posts and tried to compare IP numbers. Go ahead, I have never used my own system for these discussion.)

Ummm, first, you're wrong. I don't track IP addresses. Second, I don't know if Iggy does, or why he would care. Third, I don't care what system you use.

You are an anonymous troll at this point. You've admitted several times to spying on atheist and freethinker meetups and meetings, but won't have the balls to actually meet and talk to one of us face to face. Pardon me if I don't respect such tactics and ill-mannered actions.

And I have not found face to face meetings to be more civil;

Really? You're this obnoxious and arrogant in person, too? Funny, I've always found that people (even myself) are much more civil, polite and respectful in person. Especially when meeting in a public place.

Once again, what are you really afraid of?

you have suggested that I am afraid of being made fun of but I have been to many atheist meetings where I was ridiculed and laughed at by the WHOLE GROUP. Something about a mob in action...

So what? (gee, I'm getting tired of writing that).

I'm not talking about a "group meeting", but a simple, one-on-one sit-down-for-coffee-and-talk get together. And, since I've only got your side of the story, I don't know what was said (by both sides) and how accurate your assessment of the situation was.

BTW -- were you threatened or harmed at this "atheist meeting", or just laughed at? Is that what you are afraid of -- ridicule?

And since you say I don't know anything about you, I am under no obligation to take your word for anything; in fact, you have already insinuated that I am afraid of your arguments.

Agreed -- you are obviously under no obligation or duress to accept what I say about myself. Likewise, all I know about you is that you are an anonymous theistic troll who likes to annoy and insult others from an unknown location (sort of like Cheney -- hmmmm?).

Look, if you are too scared, timid, worried, or bashful to meet me - fine. I don't care. I'll still have a nice hour-long read of my book.

And if you (or anyone else) shows up, we can talk over a cup of coffee. Either way, I get some entertainment and enlightenment.

AdamH said...

I don't think anyone would follow thru on threats at Borders (and I am NOT saying it is you who would do so).

But they would wait until I left Borders, after Identifying me.

But I have talked to a number of atheist face to face, and none of them was particularly impressive, although admittedly none were as offensive as KCFIGGY.

And I have noticed nothing particlarly polite and respectful about you, although you keep claiming that. I read your columns; rather than focus on what you had to offer, which was the purpose of the Faith Walk altough it is now degraded, you invariabley managed to try and marginalize religion.

I was never harmed, I might add, at an atheist meeting, although I was ridiculed...and who cares, I like to argue...and I was threatened; but that is another story.

Frankly, I got bored by the gigs, and the internet is more fun!

And I think your last sentence let the cat out of the bag; this is really for entertainment, not understanding.

Chuck Lunney said...

I don't think anyone would follow thru on threats at Borders (and I am NOT saying it is you who would do so).

But they would wait until I left Borders, after Identifying me.


Paranoid? Are you so insecure in yourself that you have to resort to claims of paranoia to avoid people?

But I have talked to a number of atheist face to face, and none of them was particularly impressive, although admittedly none were as offensive as KCFIGGY.

Gee, and yet you can't document or demonstrate any of these "meetings". All you've done is talk about spying on atheists, trolling these blogs and one time you were "laughed at". I don't see where any of that is "threatening" or justifies your paranoia -- but it's your decision.

And I have noticed nothing particlarly polite and respectful about you, although you keep claiming that. I read your columns; rather than focus on what you had to offer, which was the purpose of the Faith Walk altough it is now degraded, you invariabley managed to try and marginalize religion.

I'm blunt. So what?

I'm honest about my views and opinions. So what?

I don't call others names and insult them. You do.

I don't hide behind anonymity. You do.

I'm willing to meet and talk face to face. You're too cowardly to even consider it.

I don't think highly of faulty logic and flawed arguments. You apparently do.

I was never harmed, I might add, at an atheist meeting, although I was ridiculed...and who cares, I like to argue...and I was threatened; but that is another story.

If you like to argue, then show up tomorrow at Border's.

The only "threat" I've seen is the facetious one from Iggy mocking religious belief. If you're scared I'll "ridicule" you, you might feel threatened. I'm not ashamed to admit that I find many religious claims ludicrious and obnoxiously arrogant.

Frankly, I got bored by the gigs, and the internet is more fun!

Yes, it's nice to be able to hide in the shadows, lurking in anonymity and not worry about being laughed at in public.

Gee, I wish I was so insecure and timid!

And I think your last sentence let the cat out of the bag; this is really for entertainment, not understanding.

You apparently need to consult a thesaurus. The word "enlightenment" means "understanding". And yes, I do think talking to people can be entertaining. I enjoy talking and discussing things -- hence, entertainment.

I also learn from most discussions -- hence, enlightenment and understanding.

You seem to not comprehend basic definitions. That's not my fault.

You also seem to have a problem with confidence and security. Also not my problem.

If you want to discuss, that's fine.

Oh, and quit whining about being afraid of Iggy.

AdamH said...

Your post is riddled with lies.

I am under no obligation to take chances? For what? For the opportunity to meet you? Big deal.

And call me paranoid, I don't care. If you seriously believe that in this day and age its OK for someone to joke about bringing "the wrath of Hannibal Lector" on people and tell them they are going to die soon then you are just well, a prick.

Chuck Lunney said...

Your post is riddled with lies.

Curiously, you can't specify any of them. Bald and baseless assertions gain you no points.

I am under no obligation to take chances? For what? For the opportunity to meet you? Big deal.

WTF are you talking about? The only time I mentioned "no obligation" was in reference to accepting my statements -- it had nothing whatsoever to do with "taking chances".

And I wasn't specifically inviting you to meet -- it is an open invitation to anyone.

If you don't think meeting me is a "big deal", why are you here? Is it just to annoy and harrass from your safe and anonymous little spiderhole?

And call me paranoid, I don't care.

OK - you're paranoid. Do you feel better now?

If you seriously believe that in this day and age its OK for someone to joke about bringing "the wrath of Hannibal Lector" on people and tell them they are going to die soon then you are just well, a prick.

Boy, you are a sensitive little guy, aren't you? I don't think what Iggy said was in good taste (in fact, it was offensive and vulgar), but it wasn't a "threat".

If you really think it was, why don't you call the police or FBI on him? After all, threats sent over public airwaves and networks (which this is) are actionable by law enforcement.

Or are you just blowing smoke out your rear and trying to cover up the fact you've got nothing but a fading faith and weak beliefs?

As far as the "prick" comment -- vulgarity and ad hominems are most often used when you run out of actual arguments. Surprisingly, you've used them almost from the start...

Chuck Lunney said...

By the way --

If anyone is still reading this besides the anonymous and paranoid troll:

The invite to meet at Border's is still open. I'll be there from 12:00 to 1:00 tomorrow afternoon in the coffee shop.

I know the cowardly troll won't show, so I'm expecting to have a quiet hour reading my book and enjoying a cup of coffee.

Andrew said...

I caught your link over on the Tammeus blog, looks like there has been some action over here now.
Kind of nice that the junk isn't just left on Bills site. However, unlike adam, I do enjoy meeting atheists and arguing with them, but noon or so over in Olathe is a bad time since during the day I am usually in downtown KC during the week.
Adam has a foul mouth apparently, but I agree with him about the threats. As I understand it, a police report can made, but the authorities won't really do anything unless something happens. The value of making the report is still there, though, because by making it a record is preserved should something occur.
In fact, Iggy claims to have made a number of police reports about things he didn't like at the Tammeus blog, so I don't see that your side has much room to complain.
As for the as hominems you don't like, I think when you through around stuff like all religions being for delusional people or something like that you don't have a lot of room to talk. (And strictly speaking, that is a misuse of the medical term delusional so it is definitely just a form of personal attack.)
And the part about filiming people is no joke either, Bill Tammeus is STILL featured on YOU TUBE with Iggy asking him a question about the FSM and then cutting off Bills answer. That was very dishonest of him. I don't think it is very honest of you either to say someone should simply laugh off a threat, since there have been a lot of them. How do you expect the average person to react to that kind of thing?

Chuck Lunney said...

I caught your link over on the Tammeus blog, looks like there has been some action over here now.

I didn't post it - Adam did.

Apparently, he thinks in some sort of juvenile way that pointing out that I've got a personal blog is threatening or challenging or something. I don't really understand it, but I admit it's sort of nice to get comments on my posts.

Kind of nice that the junk isn't just left on Bills site. However, unlike adam, I do enjoy meeting atheists and arguing with them, but noon or so over in Olathe is a bad time since during the day I am usually in downtown KC during the week.

Well, if noon doesn't work for you, what does? I'm sure we can arrange a time to meet.

Adam has a foul mouth apparently, but I agree with him about the threats. As I understand it, a police report can made, but the authorities won't really do anything unless something happens. The value of making the report is still there, though, because by making it a record is preserved should something occur.

That's exactly the point. Adam is being an obnoxious jerk, but rather than actually following through on the logical, reasonable course of action when "threatened", he prefers to remain anonymous and play the "helpless victim". I don't buy it.

In fact, Iggy claims to have made a number of police reports about things he didn't like at the Tammeus blog, so I don't see that your side has much room to complain.

I'm not complaining -- and I've got nothing to do with what Iggy does on his own. I didn't follow Bill's blog until I was told (not by Iggy) that someone over there was talking about me. That was about two months ago. Anything that happened prior to that, I'm not aware of.

As for the as hominems you don't like, I think when you through around stuff like all religions being for delusional people or something like that you don't have a lot of room to talk.

Please point out where I've said that. If you can't find a reference, I'm going to have to ask you to retract it, as it is a lie.

I have said, and I maintain, that many religious beliefs and rituals are illogical and bizzare -- but that says nothing about the people that practice them.

(And strictly speaking, that is a misuse of the medical term delusional so it is definitely just a form of personal attack.)

Which is why I haven't used the term or even implied it in talking about any person. Ideas, beliefs and rituals are not people, and cannot be "personally attacked".

And the part about filiming people is no joke either, Bill Tammeus is STILL featured on YOU TUBE with Iggy asking him a question about the FSM and then cutting off Bills answer. That was very dishonest of him. I don't think it is very honest of you either to say someone should simply laugh off a threat, since there have been a lot of them. How do you expect the average person to react to that kind of thing?.

The only "threats" I've seen are to do with the Lecter comments Iggy has made as a mocking imitation of some religious beliefs and superstitions. I think it is in very bad taste and offensive -- but I hardly see it as a threat.

As far as filming people - it's done all the time. If you don't want to risk ending up on YouTube or some other website, I suggest you stay out of all public places, because you cannot have an expectation of privacy there.

I do think it is dishonest to not allow the other side a full hearing - but I have nothing to do with that. Plus, there is nothing illegal about it (not to mention, it is a common tactic of some professional creationists: Kent Hovind, Ben Stein, etc).

Chuck Lunney said...

As promised, I spent an hour yesterday afternoon at the Border's coffeeshop, reading my ebook.

Imagine my surprise when no one showed up. Oh, there were other people there (the nice lady in the red sweater, the guy studying his computer networking books, the three people having a discussion about their work, etc), but not one person asked me about my beliefs, views on religion, or any other "challenging" questions.

It's almost as if the trolls don't want to come out into the light of day -- perhaps they're afraid to be burned?

AdamH said...

You lying sack.

I told you why I wouldn't show up.

Iggy was begging people to show up, and we found out why. You are his buddy and now doing the same thing and are in on this crap with him.

I don't want you jive posted on YOU TUBE as Iggy has a habit of doing.

I just thought of something, and this is not meant to be an insult, but you, Iggy, and Cole have been begging people to meet personally with them.

Are you gay? Thats OK if you are, but is that why you are always wanting personal meetings? Heck, Iggy even chased the uncle of a friend of mine around an audotorium, following the guy wherever he went.